I've been playing around in Meshwork a lot recently, and I've made a few things that I was interested in using for future map projects. Per what I've read online about 3DMF files by the Vista guys, I assumed all I would need to get my new model from Meshwork (in 3DMF format) converted for use in Fear/Loathing would be Vista's apps Amber and Apathy.
So, I wanted to test things out to see if I could quickly make my own custom model. In Meshwork, I made a simple cylinder model and threw a texture on it. Exported it as a 3dmf file, and saved the original. I downloaded Apathy (from the Tain) and fired it up. When I tried to open up the 3dmf file I made in Meshwork, Apathy just auto-quits. I try again with the same results. I try 2-3 more times and it just quits whenever I try to open up the 3dmf file I made.
I'm a total newb at this aspect of custom map-making work, so I don't know if there's an issue with the 3dmf file I made in Meshwork, or if Apathy is screwed up. I re-downloaded it and still had the same problem. I tried a different model (a simple ball/sphere shaped model w/ no texture) and had the same problem.
3DMF Files - How to transfer/convert them?
it's really tricky to do models in myth
1. the textures applied to the model need to be 256 x 256
2. you NEED to have a texture applied to EVERY side in the model if not apathy will quit
and several thousands of other things you need to know to make models which could take a whole tutorial into explaining
I bet somebody here in project magma knows a link or two to tutorials about it
1. the textures applied to the model need to be 256 x 256
2. you NEED to have a texture applied to EVERY side in the model if not apathy will quit
and several thousands of other things you need to know to make models which could take a whole tutorial into explaining
I bet somebody here in project magma knows a link or two to tutorials about it
I don't really recall any actual tutorials on Apathy. My findings are thus; it's touchy. But it's all we really have at the moment.
As carlinho says EVERY face MUST be textured and the textures must have dimensions that are a POWER of two no larger than 256. That is; 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 or 256 as the choices. The dimensions don't need to be the same, they could be 2 x 256, or 4 x 32 if you wanted. Another thing to watch for is; how complicated is your cylinder? It's possible it's got too many polygons, I can't remember if Apathy or Myth impose any hard limits, but it's generally not good to have more than maybe 100 except in really big models (where you won't see them all at once anyway).
Problem with Apathy is that it could be picking up on things that you might not think to post here, or that other Apathy users may not even have discovered before. It's not the most robust program =)
If you're running OS 9 using Classic, or have an OS 9 machine you aren't afraid of wrecking, then what you need is a debugger app for Mac OS 9, this will pick up a huge number of error messages that Apathy spits out that do not come up as dialog boxes.
If I remember right, the one I used was "MacsBug" which was made by Apple and which you can get at this link, as I say though, you need to be careful using it, it's painfully easy to hose an OS 9 installation just by running it so I strongly recommend only using it with Classic (it won't hurt OS X) or with an computing running OS 9 that does nothing critical for you. If you do get it working right though it's a great little tool as it also stops OS 9 from crashing by throwing up an error screen where you can enter commands to terminate a faulty program, I can't for life of me remember what those commands are, but there's documentation online
As carlinho says EVERY face MUST be textured and the textures must have dimensions that are a POWER of two no larger than 256. That is; 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 or 256 as the choices. The dimensions don't need to be the same, they could be 2 x 256, or 4 x 32 if you wanted. Another thing to watch for is; how complicated is your cylinder? It's possible it's got too many polygons, I can't remember if Apathy or Myth impose any hard limits, but it's generally not good to have more than maybe 100 except in really big models (where you won't see them all at once anyway).
Problem with Apathy is that it could be picking up on things that you might not think to post here, or that other Apathy users may not even have discovered before. It's not the most robust program =)
If you're running OS 9 using Classic, or have an OS 9 machine you aren't afraid of wrecking, then what you need is a debugger app for Mac OS 9, this will pick up a huge number of error messages that Apathy spits out that do not come up as dialog boxes.
If I remember right, the one I used was "MacsBug" which was made by Apple and which you can get at this link, as I say though, you need to be careful using it, it's painfully easy to hose an OS 9 installation just by running it so I strongly recommend only using it with Classic (it won't hurt OS X) or with an computing running OS 9 that does nothing critical for you. If you do get it working right though it's a great little tool as it also stops OS 9 from crashing by throwing up an error screen where you can enter commands to terminate a faulty program, I can't for life of me remember what those commands are, but there's documentation online
Being Haravikk gets you girls like these:
I think the limit of vertices you can use is 300 or so
couple of hints when doing models:
1)the best way to scale models is this:
create a box : size 1 x 1 x 1
that equals 1 cell in myth
then scale accordingly all your models to that.
2)You'll need each vertice to connect to the next one in order to make your model appear without weird things happening in myth
3)you'll need to subdivide your model into dimensions of 1x1 at the base so when it touches the myth grid it looks ok, that means that if your box is 6 cells wide by 4 cells deep, then you'll need to subdivide it in 6x1 cells by 4x1 cells at the base.
4)you don't need the floor side...as models in myth stick to the ground and you cannot therefore see the floor...you can edit that out in meshworks
and like 1,000 more....
couple of hints when doing models:
1)the best way to scale models is this:
create a box : size 1 x 1 x 1
that equals 1 cell in myth
then scale accordingly all your models to that.
2)You'll need each vertice to connect to the next one in order to make your model appear without weird things happening in myth
3)you'll need to subdivide your model into dimensions of 1x1 at the base so when it touches the myth grid it looks ok, that means that if your box is 6 cells wide by 4 cells deep, then you'll need to subdivide it in 6x1 cells by 4x1 cells at the base.
4)you don't need the floor side...as models in myth stick to the ground and you cannot therefore see the floor...you can edit that out in meshworks
and like 1,000 more....
If you want to have you model deform the mesh beneath it (ie move mesh cells up to fit a ramp) then you need to get a hold of Vegas (available on the Tain too) and use that after you've imported your model. It also has a few other useful features, so it's generally best to use Apathy JUST to import a model, then do everything else in Vegas.
Vegas just works from your local folder so all you need are the tags from Apathy placed in there.
Vegas just works from your local folder so all you need are the tags from Apathy placed in there.
Being Haravikk gets you girls like these:
Some of this info has already been mentioned above, but I am too lazy to edit, so here are a couple of posts on the topic of mapmaking from an earlier conversation on the Magma forums(Mauglir) and from a Q&A about mapmaking that used to be on the Vista site.
Also, I think I grabbed the most relevant stuff but there might be a useful fact or two in one of these other articles about Models.
------------- Mauglir said (in the summer of 2006):
I might be able to offer some additional advice, though it's been a while since I actually worked with any of this stuff and I'm not up to speed on the current state of the engine, so my figures might be out-dated.
A Myth model can have a maximum of 512 polygons. However, there is a bug in Vegas that causes it to spit out any models with more than 510 polygons.
Apathy has a lot of broken functionality. None of the vertex functions work, and the design of the interface makes it nearly impossible to use some of the surface editing functions. Also, the collection (.256) tags Apathy generates are shit. You must use Amber to replace all of the collection bitmaps if you want your models to look good.
With the above in mind, I also strongly suggest you not use individual collection tags for each model if you can help it. If your map has multiple models that all use similar color palletes for their textures, and/or different models that use identical textures, you can combine all of the textures into one master collection tag and discard the duplicate textures. Then scrap all of individual collection tags Apathy has generated. Then use Fear to change all of the models' collection reference (CORE) tags so they reference the master collection. This process can be time-consuming, but it will make the in-game performance much better because the Myth engine should less texture data to chew through. In case you didn't already know, the Myth engine does not pre-cache texture data--model textures are loaded on-the-fly as you play through the level. Thus, maximum efficiency is vital.
On the subject of using models to deform the mesh (i.e. sticking to the mesh), this isn't really necessary unless you are using a model to build a ramp or bridge, or similar structure. If you just have a basic building sitting on a flat mesh, the deform mesh setting isn't needed. Well, it can help keep things looking better if you have massive explosions that cause HUGE mesh ripples, but even then I don't think it's really helpful or necessary.
A long time ago I wrote up some directions on using Vegas. The text file might still be floating around the Magma Hotline server. Ozone might also have a copy.
If you are planning to have rooved buildings that units can walk in and out of, consider three possible ways to help prevent the units from disappearing entirely from the camera and getting lost by the player. The first solution is the simple Bungie method of making sure the building is tall enough so that when the camera zooms in all the way, it penetrates the roof of the building. Another method is the technique iggy used when making the Nionel buildings in Jinn. Basically, the buildings are annimated models with two frames -- the first being a the "roof intact" frame, the second being the "roof ripped away" frame. The annimation is triggered with a simple script that detects the presence of a player unit entering the building. A third option is to set part of the roof texture to be partially transparant. You can also use different texture permutations: say 0% transparent and 50% transparent. The permutations can be scripted to change at the appropriate time just like with the annimated method described above. Note that the transparent method will only allow you to see the units inside the building, not click on them, so you will still want to make sure the building is of sufficient height so the player can zoom the camera in through the roof to interact with the units.
Models can have annimated textures. By default, textures in a model collection all have one frame each. You can easily use Amber to assign additional frames. I used this technique once to make the walls of a crypt have a flickering torchlight effect.
One last tip on optimizing models for Myth. Consider the angle of the in-game camera and delete all polygons in the model that the camera will never see. This will help you get closer to the 510 count and make the model quicker to load and easier to texture map. 510 polygons doesn't seem like a lot, but with a the right techniques, you can make some amazingly detailed models with far less than that number.
Good luck!
_________________
Mauglir
----------------------------------------- Vista Cartel said...
Model must be a triangle mesh provided in 3DMF format from Meshwork or from FormZ with optimiser.
The textures must UV mapped and be no larger than 256 pixels squared.
The textures may only have dimentions that are to the power of 2 (2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256).
The model may not exceed 512 polygons (in reality myth crashes around 509).
Be careful of normals on polygons. In myth they may not be two sided, one side will be transparent.
There is a limit of 128 models within Myth. This limit also includes animodels.
There is a set limit of the number of frames an animodel may have. About 32 frames for all animodels on a map (I believe).
And you may not have more than 8 unique animodels on a map. From this you may conclude that models are a pain and that Myth sucks. I would agree.
Also, I think I grabbed the most relevant stuff but there might be a useful fact or two in one of these other articles about Models.
------------- Mauglir said (in the summer of 2006):
I might be able to offer some additional advice, though it's been a while since I actually worked with any of this stuff and I'm not up to speed on the current state of the engine, so my figures might be out-dated.
A Myth model can have a maximum of 512 polygons. However, there is a bug in Vegas that causes it to spit out any models with more than 510 polygons.
Apathy has a lot of broken functionality. None of the vertex functions work, and the design of the interface makes it nearly impossible to use some of the surface editing functions. Also, the collection (.256) tags Apathy generates are shit. You must use Amber to replace all of the collection bitmaps if you want your models to look good.
With the above in mind, I also strongly suggest you not use individual collection tags for each model if you can help it. If your map has multiple models that all use similar color palletes for their textures, and/or different models that use identical textures, you can combine all of the textures into one master collection tag and discard the duplicate textures. Then scrap all of individual collection tags Apathy has generated. Then use Fear to change all of the models' collection reference (CORE) tags so they reference the master collection. This process can be time-consuming, but it will make the in-game performance much better because the Myth engine should less texture data to chew through. In case you didn't already know, the Myth engine does not pre-cache texture data--model textures are loaded on-the-fly as you play through the level. Thus, maximum efficiency is vital.
On the subject of using models to deform the mesh (i.e. sticking to the mesh), this isn't really necessary unless you are using a model to build a ramp or bridge, or similar structure. If you just have a basic building sitting on a flat mesh, the deform mesh setting isn't needed. Well, it can help keep things looking better if you have massive explosions that cause HUGE mesh ripples, but even then I don't think it's really helpful or necessary.
A long time ago I wrote up some directions on using Vegas. The text file might still be floating around the Magma Hotline server. Ozone might also have a copy.
If you are planning to have rooved buildings that units can walk in and out of, consider three possible ways to help prevent the units from disappearing entirely from the camera and getting lost by the player. The first solution is the simple Bungie method of making sure the building is tall enough so that when the camera zooms in all the way, it penetrates the roof of the building. Another method is the technique iggy used when making the Nionel buildings in Jinn. Basically, the buildings are annimated models with two frames -- the first being a the "roof intact" frame, the second being the "roof ripped away" frame. The annimation is triggered with a simple script that detects the presence of a player unit entering the building. A third option is to set part of the roof texture to be partially transparant. You can also use different texture permutations: say 0% transparent and 50% transparent. The permutations can be scripted to change at the appropriate time just like with the annimated method described above. Note that the transparent method will only allow you to see the units inside the building, not click on them, so you will still want to make sure the building is of sufficient height so the player can zoom the camera in through the roof to interact with the units.
Models can have annimated textures. By default, textures in a model collection all have one frame each. You can easily use Amber to assign additional frames. I used this technique once to make the walls of a crypt have a flickering torchlight effect.
One last tip on optimizing models for Myth. Consider the angle of the in-game camera and delete all polygons in the model that the camera will never see. This will help you get closer to the 510 count and make the model quicker to load and easier to texture map. 510 polygons doesn't seem like a lot, but with a the right techniques, you can make some amazingly detailed models with far less than that number.
Good luck!
_________________
Mauglir
----------------------------------------- Vista Cartel said...
Model must be a triangle mesh provided in 3DMF format from Meshwork or from FormZ with optimiser.
The textures must UV mapped and be no larger than 256 pixels squared.
The textures may only have dimentions that are to the power of 2 (2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256).
The model may not exceed 512 polygons (in reality myth crashes around 509).
Be careful of normals on polygons. In myth they may not be two sided, one side will be transparent.
There is a limit of 128 models within Myth. This limit also includes animodels.
There is a set limit of the number of frames an animodel may have. About 32 frames for all animodels on a map (I believe).
And you may not have more than 8 unique animodels on a map. From this you may conclude that models are a pain and that Myth sucks. I would agree.
Lots of Myth stuff at http://mythgraveyard.org.
Sometimes I put hard to find stuff in my my Udogs folder.
Sometimes I put hard to find stuff in my my Udogs folder.
In order to make any sense of why it might mysteriously crash now and then you doZeph wrote:i recall that in order to use Vegas, you MUST have macsbug running
The Tain only seems to have the Classic version of Vegas though, I have an OS X/Carbon version here, I'm going to see if I can find out why that is. As I could have sworn I re-uploaded it before
Being Haravikk gets you girls like these:
Looks like it can be found here:
vegas 1.5a1 (Mac OSX)
http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/--MYT ... 20Uploads/
vegas 1.5a1 (Mac OSX)
http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/--MYT ... 20Uploads/
Ah, that would be where I put it then =)
It has one or two additional quirks to the OS 9 only one, such as resizing the window being horrifying, and sometimes wireframe/normals won't switch on. But the stuff you use it for is there, just don't ever touch Convert Geometry. Ever.
It has one or two additional quirks to the OS 9 only one, such as resizing the window being horrifying, and sometimes wireframe/normals won't switch on. But the stuff you use it for is there, just don't ever touch Convert Geometry. Ever.
Being Haravikk gets you girls like these: