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Iron.... I still protest!

This thread is ridiculous!

Zeph wrote:im pretty sure that trows used to be able to take down 10 berserks before dying, not they barely kill 4-5.

That was the removal of anticlump between TFL and SB. Magma added it back, so you should thank them.

Thank you for being a case in point, Renwood, but next time try not to be so obvious or they'll think I'm paying you.

OtA's post makes me realize one thing in long belated hindsight: no patch should ever be released just before MWC and we were in a rush to do just exactly that.

Those things may seem minor from a developer's standpoint but they are huge (massive!) in the tourney community where knowing the quirks can be the competitive advantage that gives you the game.

This is valid. You don't want anything to be different when playing in a tournament. Even a change in resolution, or a new mouse pad with a different texture, can be a distraction. Dumping changes on tournament players before they can get used to them was pretty unfair.

But that's all I will allow. Making an effort to win the approval of the self congratulating "elite" or "competitive" crowd is useful for stroking egos, and that's about it. No offense, OtA.

I mean, look at what happened, they hated it, flamed Magma, and... so what? They still adapted. Magma could have worked harder to alter that result by degrees, and perhaps make things a little less dramatic, but I don't think it would have been possible to avoid it entirely because you're always going to have Renwoods, Acherons and Igmos - no matter what. It is human nature to hate and resist change, just as it is within human nature to successfully adapt to change. It's a silly waste of time to fight that. For the most part, what happened with the patch releases is the only thing that could have happened. I see the same tired old story play out, over and over, every few months in WoW.

Not that there isn't a thin line where too drastic a change spells disaster. Obviously, too many bugs or unintuitive gameplay changes and Magma's efforts would have flopped as badly as M3. However, I think the collective intuition Magma's team (not to mention the quality of their work) was already sufficient to stay well clear of that line without the need to rely on Acheron and company. Heck, I'm sure it's realized even if no one wants to say it out loud: OS compatibility updates alone gave Magma a lock on the community.

At any rate, I'm excited to see 1.7 close to release. I'm sure it'll be top notch even if the experts remember 1.3 to be vastly superior. If that happens, my simple advice for good PR is don't flame any naysayers (that entrenches their opinion more than any bugs) and let the product speak for itself.

CP, all this dismal talk of the worst part of myth's history being played out repeatedly over and over every few months on WoW makes me wonder why you, of all people, continue to submerse yourself in it over and over again?? :: shakes fist at Blizzard Entertainment ::

Come back to the myth world buddy. The Real World.

We miss you.

Aww, thanks Gray, I miss you guys too, hence my checking in here and making sure all the facts are straight.

all this dismal talk of the worst part of myth's history being played out repeatedly over and over every few months on WoW makes me wonder why you, of all people, continue to submerse yourself in it over and over again??

I don't even get a toe wet, much less submerse myself. I've never even posted on the WoW forums once. They're like Myth forums, but with a lower average IQ and literally millions more wankers, so no thanks. As for the changes that Blizzard makes, some annoy me - but I quickly get used to them, just like everyone else does.

As for the worst part of Myth history, I'd hardly call it that. For me, it was a super exciting time. The good stuff outweighed all the bad with Blades and whatnot.

Alas, despite the fond memories, I don't think I'll be coming back to Myth other than the occasional uDog gathering two or three times a year. The good stuff in WoW is pretty darn good too. Graphically, the game smokes Myth. The gameplay, in some aspects is greatly inferior to Myth (I miss the physics!!!), but in others, far more compelling. It's kind of like a years long Mazz game that you can log in and out of any time (for the times you feel like coop) and a much more brutal and emotionally charged player vs player system (for when you feel like multi). Socially, there are more uDogs playing WoW then there are peak players on Mnet - and some are close RL friends. Working together to meet various goals is the most fun part, and frankly, those noobs wouldn't stand a chance with out me, so I can't leave.

Poor Chris, he's already in Denial of playing WoW too much.

The masses will ALLWAYS accept mediocrity over high art.
A great artist told me that years ago.

I don't know if it's always that simple, Renwood. If you asked your artist friend what seperates high art over mediocrity, I bet he or she will list sophistication as one of the most important attributes.

Remember that game Deer Hunter? It sold millions of copies; I'm guessing mostly to the same American Beer drinkers you mentioned. Needless to say, I don't think any of us would find Deer Hunter a sophisticated game. Nor did the people who bought it. No communities sprouted up around it, and I bet hardly anyone plays it anymore compared to when its boxes lined Walmart shelves. A mdiocre game, it lacked longevity because it lacked sophistication, and even the rednecks quickly got bored.

Myth is a very sophisticated game and the fact that it still has an active community is testament to that. WoW is also very sophisticated (though in different ways) thus its flourishing community. You can be biased against WoW if it's not your thing, and that's fine, but if you try to deny that its a complex and sophisticated game, you don't know what you're talking about.

The difference between Myth and WoW is that Myth has a very steep learning curve. Really, it would have been much better if it had more or longer levels with more time spent easing new players into the gameplay. A few early levels with like, just a dwarf, maybe two, lots of enemy thrall and some cool shit to blow up would have been just the thing. Worse is the learning curve in Multi, coupled with the jerky elitist attitudes towards noobs. I don't know how that could have been overcome better, but for sure, it turned off a lot of casual players and kept them from sticking with it long enough to join the community.

WoW is different in that the learning curve is very gradual. There's overwhelming amounts of stuff to learn, but it comes at you in managable amounts, and anyone can learn and play the game. Nor are you forced to group with elitist snobs when you're first starting out. The complexity keeps building, to the point where only a tiny fraction of the best players get to experience some of the endgame stuff, even if they play for years. And therein lies much of the continuous draw to the game. The sophistication level always matches what each individual can handle, no more, no less.

And Godz, you're probably right, but then again, I don't give it any more time than I used to devote to Myth.

Ha!! I was great at Deer Hunter. Got kinda boring waiting around for dumb animals that don't shoot back, though.

My favourite thing though was waiting until the deer were eating or drinking. They'd be so engrossed in what they were doing, then BAM.

Hoooo boy.

the only PROBLEM CHRIS IS THAT...WOW IS EVIL!

Satan himself programmed it!

its complex sure, but the gameplay style of motherfucking DICE ROLLING COMBAT makes me puke inside my mouth and swollow it every time i watch it in action.

We had dice back in the day because we NEEDED THEM....Now we have SUPER COMPUTERS so we DONT need to roll dice anymore!

~8^)

its still fun to know the difference between rolling 2D4 instead of 1D8

Renwood TWA wrote:...gameplay style of motherfucking DICE ROLLING COMBAT makes me puke inside my mouth and swollow it every time i watch it in action.

We had dice back in the day because we NEEDED THEM....Now we have SUPER COMPUTERS so we DONT need to roll dice anymore!
~8^)

Not sure what game you were watching, but you never roll dice for combat in WoW. All combat related random number generation is handled behind the scenes, exactly the way it is in Myth. The only time you ever do any sort of "dice rolling" is when you're in a group with other players and an item drops that more than one person wants. You can then "roll" a computer generated random integer as a fair way to determine which player gets to keep it.

ChrisP wrote:my simple advice for good PR is don't flame any naysayers (that entrenches their opinion more than any bugs)

Ok, who are you and what did you do with CP?

the computers are still dice rolling kinda like you said, but what i mean by "DICE ROLLING" is stuff like this, long time ago when it was just pen and paper. if something was fired or shot or thrown at you, then you gotta ROLL A DIE to see if you DODGE IT. in myth you DONT ROLL A DIE, you dodge it in REAL TIME and you have to move your guy. Sure if a warrior blocks a thrall's axe during melee it was good old fashion dice rolling. BUT if you time it and hit T or whatever to make a warrior block an arrow it is action based and not dice base.

at least thats how the voices explained it all to me long ago, one night in the dark, on a beach eating a peach

"miss fraction" (or maybe it is "hit fraction")

"miss fraction" (or maybe it is "hit fraction")