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Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:50 pm
by Phex
Hello,
I have experienced a few problems and obscurities with models on my maps. I will try to explain them as good as I can:
1) Rotation
Is there any way to rotate a model without using this stupid pink arrow? When I rotate models with the help of this arrow, they always 'raise' the mesh below them, which makes them fly higher and higher above the ground. Its nearly impossible to turn them correctly.
2) 'cell (x/y) contains more than one model'
On one map I use castle models from The 7th God, the so called Markon-castle (with different textures).
Strange things happen when I try to place these castle models. I positioned the models EXACTLY like on the original 7th god map, but it does not work. On some places there is a 'cell (x/y) contains more than one model' error, which I cannot explain. Is it a bug? Is there another way to place models?
This is what two of the castle walls (called "Model 1" and "Model 2") look like when I put them as close together as possible. As you see, there is a small, one cell gap between the two models.
Now I move Model 2 one cell to the left to fill the gap. This is what happens:
Altough there is no model in the area, Model 2 was moved into, the error mentioned above occurs.
BUT, on the other side of the castle exactly the same two models are connected without a gap and without any error as you can see it here:
What is the cause for this error and how can I solve it?
3) Animated Models
How do I place Model Animations (like the windmill in Willow Creek) on my map? They are not shown in the regular model list and cannot be selected. (I know how to animate existing model animations, but I dont know how to create new ones)
4) Texture variations
How can I create new texture variations of existing models? (Like houses that have different shadings)
5) Creating Models
Is there a Myth-Modelmaking-Tool for windows? If no, is there any other 3D programme, like Max3D, that can (with special constrictions) create models which can be converted into Myth models?
Thank you for your help!
rgds,
- Phex.
PS: I can post other screenshots if you cant see anything on the ones above.
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:49 pm
by Industry
3) Animated Models
They are on the Animated Models list. Click on the windmill button on the far right in Loathing. Double click on it to add model animations to the palette.
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:46 pm
by mauglir
Phex wrote:Hello,
I have experienced a few problems and obscurities with models on my maps. I will try to explain them as good as I can:
1) Rotation
Is there any way to rotate a model without using this stupid pink arrow? When I rotate models with the help of this arrow, they always 'raise' the mesh below them, which makes them fly higher and higher above the ground. Its nearly impossible to turn them correctly.
2) 'cell (x/y) contains more than one model'
On one map I use castle models from The 7th God, the so called Markon-castle (with different textures).
Strange things happen when I try to place these castle models. I positioned the models EXACTLY like on the original 7th god map, but it does not work. On some places there is a 'cell (x/y) contains more than one model' error, which I cannot explain. Is it a bug? Is there another way to place models?
This is what two of the castle walls (called "Model 1" and "Model 2") look like when I put them as close together as possible. As you see, there is a small, one cell gap between the two models.
Now I move Model 2 one cell to the left to fill the gap. This is what happens:
Altough there is no model in the area, Model 2 was moved into, the error mentioned above occurs.
BUT, on the other side of the castle exactly the same two models are connected without a gap and without any error as you can see it here:
What is the cause for this error and how can I solve it?
3) Animated Models
How do I place Model Animations (like the windmill in Willow Creek) on my map? They are not shown in the regular model list and cannot be selected. (I know how to animate existing model animations, but I dont know how to create new ones)
4) Texture variations
How can I create new texture variations of existing models? (Like houses that have different shadings)
5) Creating Models
Is there a Myth-Modelmaking-Tool for windows? If no, is there any other 3D programme, like Max3D, that can (with special constrictions) create models which can be converted into Myth models?
Thank you for your help!
rgds,
- Phex.
PS: I can post other screenshots if you cant see anything on the ones above.
1) Rotation
Is there any way to rotate a model without using this stupid pink arrow? When I rotate models with the help of this arrow, they always 'raise' the mesh below them, which makes them fly higher and higher above the ground. Its nearly impossible to turn them correctly.
The best way to do this is to rotate the model before you place it on the mesh. You do this by pressing the R/L arrow keys right before you place the model. This will require some trial and error, since you'll have to guess and remember which way the original facing is. If you place the model, and the facing is wrong, delete the model, flatten the mesh, and try again. Yes, this is a major pain in the ass, but it's really the only way to do it when you're working with models that deform the mesh.
2) 'cell (x/y) contains more than one model'
On one map I use castle models from The 7th God, the so called Markon-castle (with different textures).
Strange things happen when I try to place these castle models. I positioned the models EXACTLY like on the original 7th god map, but it does not work. On some places there is a 'cell (x/y) contains more than one model' error, which I cannot explain. Is it a bug? Is there another way to place models?
I've run into this error before, and it sucks. As close as I can figure, the problem stems from a combination of poor programming in Loathing and poor model making techniques. Sometimes, when you place a large model, its X/Y position isn't perfectly centered -- so instead of X 100, Y 100, you get something like X 100.001, Y 99.999. If you then try to place an adjacent model, you'll probably get the model overlap error message.
What might get you around this is to use the Set Model Location function in Loathing to manually set every model's location. So, place one model, use Set Model Location to make sure the X/Y numbers are whole or halves (100.500 is okay, for example), then place the second model and repeat until you're done.
3) Animated Models
How do I place Model Animations (like the windmill in Willow Creek) on my map? They are not shown in the regular model list and cannot be selected.
Model Animations are found under the windmill icon in Loathing (not the house).
4) Texture variations
How can I create new texture variations of existing models? (Like houses that have different shadings)
These are called Model Permutations. All models have at leat one perumation by default, and some have more than one. If a model has multiple permuations, you can choose which one is displayed by command-clicking (control-click on PC? maybe it's Alt-click) on it and choosing a number from the menu that pops up.
Creating new model perumations is a tricky thing, and it must be done using two Myth tools: Amber and Vegas. Both of these are Mac only, so if you're a PC user, you're out of luck, sorry. The specific details about how exactly to create model perumations are too involved for a post like this, so if you really want to know, send me a PM here and I'll help you out. Keep in mind that you must have access to a Mac to do it.
5) Creating Models
Is there a Myth-Modelmaking-Tool for windows? If no, is there any other 3D programme, like Max3D, that can (with special constrictions) create models which can be converted into Myth models?
Any 3D application capable of exporting .3DMF files can be used to create models that will work in Myth. The trick is that the only tools available for converting .3DMF models in to Myth tags are Mac only. If you're a PC user, you're only recourse at this point is to become very friendly with a Mac user who knows something about importing models. I think there are about three of us on these boards, but as we are all involved with our own projects, getting us to agree to help will take some convincing. Getting models into Myth is no small task -- there are many steps involved, and it all begins with knowing what does and doesn't work in the Myth engine. But, unless you actually spend time using the Myth model importer tools, its hard to really understand what you need to know in order to create new model geometry.
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:31 am
by Phex
Hey mauglir,
Thank you for your differenciated help! Everything seems clear to me as you explained it, just the model overlap error drives me nuts. You told me the following about it:
I've run into this error before, and it sucks. As close as I can figure, the problem stems from a combination of poor programming in Loathing and poor model making techniques. Sometimes, when you place a large model, its X/Y position isn't perfectly centered -- so instead of X 100, Y 100, you get something like X 100.001, Y 99.999. If you then try to place an adjacent model, you'll probably get the model overlap error message.
What might get you around this is to use the Set Model Location function in Loathing to manually set every model's location. So, place one model, use Set Model Location to make sure the X/Y numbers are whole or halves (100.500 is okay, for example), then place the second model and repeat until you're done.
As I said before, I made a remake of a 7th God Map with this nerve-racking castle models.
What I now did was following: I wrote down ALL coordinates of the castle models as they were set in the original 7th God map (which were all completely divisible by 0.5). Then I placed the models on my map according to these coordinates, which means they have exactly the same positions as on the original Map. But: although rotation and position are totally equal, they do overlap!
Is there any bug that causes Loathing to show the coordinates wrong if the model centers are not placed correctly? I have absolutely no idea what I could do now.
rgds,
- Phex.
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:45 am
by mauglir
Okay, there's another problem you might be experiencing, called ghosting.
Sometimes Loathing fails to completely delete a model from the mesh. It will look like there isn't a model in a certain place, but if you click on the submesh tool, you'll notice a blue outline of a non-existant model in a place where there should be none. I suspect this may also happen when you try to move a model and Loathing fails to update the new placement information correctly.
Another way to identify this bug is to look at the placement count for a particular model in the model menu. If you think you have four of the same model placed on the mesh, but the model menu shows five, you probably have a ghosted model. Ghosted models will also show on Loathing's overhead map (along with all the real models) when you have the model tool selected.
The only way I've found to resolve the ghosting issue is to delete the problematic model from the model list. (yes this can suck if you've used the same model many times, but it's the only way as far as I know) You can then re-add the model and place it as many times as you need to.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:29 am
by Phex
Ok. I deleted all models, started again with placing them - and finally succeeded! 
But its Loathing and so there is another error trying to fool me: whenever I want to Add Model Shading to my map, Loathing just freezes and I have to force quit it. What is this supposed to mean?
rgds,
- Phex.
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:14 pm
by mauglir
Loathing is probably not freezing on you, it just takes a very long time for Add Model Shading to complete its work. Unfortunately, Loathing does not offer any progress feedback in these cases, but just be patient, it should work if you give it enough time.
I've made a couple of maps that used over 100 models and it took Loathing about 10 minutes to add all of the shadows.
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:54 am
by Phex
You were right - after waiting about 10 minutes, the shadows finally appeared. 
rgds,
- Phex.
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
by haravikk
Takes about twenty seconds on my G5, w00t 