Readmes and credit

[vinylrake]

While cleaning up some old map readmes, I came across the following quote which I found interesting. The author is Mormith, and the comment is from an old TFL readme. I am not trying to stir up a cold issue, just thought this old-school mapmaker's perspective might be interesting. If you feel the need to reply to this post, please discuss the issue in the abstract, there's no need to rehash old issues or point fingers.

"Yes, I will fly off the handle if someone distributes these works without this read me or if someone changes some small thing and starts claiming they created the maps. I hope the map making community will back me up on that as there is really a ton of work involved in making a map." -- mormith

[juliocpaes]

Hi Vinyl,

I think, Mormith is correct in this reinvidicação of credits, perhaps he have exaggerated in say : "I will fly off the handle".
Yes, the correct one is to read the "read me" and do not forgetting of cite the authors and give the due credits. but unfortunately, perhaps someone can forget, deliberately or not.

[carlinho]

well, he has the right to ask for that: the need to get permission from him to use what he did.

If I recall correctly, creation games also didn't allow for mapmakers to modify or use their content.

I think the correct way is to ask for permission. If you are allowed to, then you use. If not, then you don't.
I always asked for permission to use whatever I needed to use, unless it strictly was stuff that expressly said anyone could use, and I was never negated the benefit.

But then, maybe because I did ask politely and the project was to use the items as some additional candy, and not to just modify a few things here and there and claim the creation as mine.

It's very different to use 1 unit or one scenery in a map, than to grab an entire modified game, use everything, put your name on it, and say: I'm the creator of this...
I guess that's what could bring mormith or any mapmaker berzerk...hehe

[William Wallet]

Anything that gets put into monolithic tags is fair game.

Didn't anyone read the Bungie docs??

[vinylrake]

Which "Bungie Docs" are you referring to (specifically)?

The Myth2 manual contains instructions that anything made with Fear/Loathing needs to include a Bungie credit, and you aren't allowed to charge money for any map/plugin that contains _any_ Bungie copyrighted content, but I don't recall anything about 3rd party creations or re-use of non-Bungie created content.

[Point]

well I'd like to thank god that I'm almost done with projects that have been on my hard drive for a while.... though I won't be giving him/her credit since I'm more of an agnostic though I will be giving credit to all that I can think of for all the various pieces, parts and inspirations that are in the tagsets and maps... its not an easy task so I'm sure some things will be missed.....

anyway Thanks to Bungie, Udogz, Magma, Mnet, whoever hosts this forum, and vinylrake for posting this topic.. oh and anyone that reply's...

Thanks again.

Point...


P.s. if you would like to help give or get credits... pm me for download links...

CWR Civil War Reloaded
CWR Multiplayer Maps
CWR Civil War Campaign
wAvA Warfare Axis Vs Allies...
wAvA Recon Revisited
wAvA Forgotten Heroes Campaign (fury)
wAvA Operation Overlord Campaign
wAvA Warfare Multiplayer Maps
CPR Charlies Point Redux
CPR Welcome To the Jungle Maps
AoM ARTofMyth Tagset
AoM Multiplayer Maps
AoM CoOpulation Campaign

[Zaknafein]

The issue is authors don't feel they get enough credit. I don't know anyone who goes around, stealing the work of other people and then seriously claims they made it themselves.

Even creation, who doesn't want anyone to touch their plugins, ever. They modified an existing map to create "peace on the ramparts" which was created by somebody who quit myth before they could get permission.

[Point]

Zak im glad you feel that way.... now if we go look on the tain at the ZakMap making team maps... if I didn't know better I'd think by reading the tain info that you created all kinds of maps ...

I didn't know you made Paintball etc...

Take for instance for Yukigassen (MWC)
"This snow map has had its previously awful unit trades turned into standard MWC worthy unit trades.
I have 3 meshes, using the shuffle, calm, and dark canyon trades.
check it out grim!"


Maybe in that map and others the information posted on tain would refer to who made the original map or at least state clearly that the map was a remake or edit of someones creation.

anyway its something for you to think about ... Keep up the good work...

[Zaknafein]

And the existence of plugins made earlier, of the exact same name, would certainly help my claim to ownership. The unaltered pregame images inside the plugin as well!

Edit: And I made it clear that I meant a GENUINE effort to steal somebody else's plugin.

[Pyro]

People are terrible at taking note of older submissions. It is always best to play it safe and cover all bases. This ensures the people that know better won't see you as a bother in the mapmaking side of Myth and might even be more willing to assist you (and approve your future items). It also, ensures the curious people that don't know any better will easily find out where the modified maps originate from.

[Industry]

There seem to be a number of these--Maps made from other peoples work. And I have a weird sense about it. Using someone else's units on a map seems normal, whereas using someone else's unmodified color map seems inappropriate. I don't know why. Its just the way it rubs me.

Perhaps its because of my expectations. When I see a new plugin I expect to see a new color map. Just like in a Tagset I expect new units, or in a Total Conversion I expect new units, new models, new maps, new everything. So perhaps it is all just a problem of perception? Maybe we should create a new word for plugins that are largely derivative of someone else's work? This way downloaders will know to expect a previously released collection of maps. Map Collection? Total Subversion? Tweaker Collection? What do they call those paintings where the painter has re-used an old canvas? Or perhaps the standard practice should be to include the unmodified source material in the new zip file? So in addition to your new plugin and readme, there would be the original plugin's zipfile?

[vinylrake]

"PlugMix" or "MapMix" or "reMixMap Pack"

[Jon God]

Deadfall resuses old Cmaps, with permission, as well as doing that, I've made new pregames, which credit the cmap's creator. I've also added in game credits to some of the cmaps, and put credits both in the manual, and online at the site.

I feel like hopefully that is respectful enough; and it's not too hard for folks to do this.

[Zaknafein]

There seem to be a number of these--Maps made from other peoples work. And I have a weird sense about it. Using someone else's units on a map seems normal, whereas using someone else's unmodified color map seems inappropriate. I don't know why. Its just the way it rubs me.

Or perhaps the standard practice should be to include the unmodified source material in the new zip file? So in addition to your new plugin and readme, there would be the original plugin's zipfile?

Most of my plugins, I take a colormap that was created by someone else, and put regular myth units on it instead of requiring you to use bushido, TSG, Jinn, Dreamseedz, etc. Just because nobody plays those plugins anymore doesn't mean the netmaps need to sit around unused.

If you applied the practice you described to some of my plugins, you would have zipped files that are close to or over half a gigabyte.

[Point]

Zak I like that you are giving old maps new life... I think its a great thing... what doesn't sit well is that it can be unclear that some of them are old maps getting a facelift.

Giving credit is very difficult sometimes, its hard to know who to credit or even if they created it from someone else's work... I think the default should be somewhere along the lines of taking less credit and simply saying up right and out front hey i got this from x or y and altered it, you can download the original here... I hope you enjoy my version...etc...

Its expecting too much to be able to credit everything that went into a plugin or tagset though its expecting too little just to say hey play my version of map x its new and fun.

the standard I have set for myself is to try and put at least some credits in the net game previews, the level or game hints list, single player prelude text, in the readme and sometimes even the text at the start of the game... even this falls short since its very challenging to trace every part and piece back to its original creator though at least its an attempt to say I didn't do all of it on my own...