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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:51 pm
by Lord Thanos
I must say, the maps created by the Project Magma Team are each exemplary in their own right. They deserve to be perfect, or at least near-to. That is why the small things bother me so much. Therefore, I have compiled a list of things which, if improved, would make those maps as damn near close to flawless as possible. (I am willing to provide as much assistance as my schedule allows to facilitate these improvements).
1. Rabican. I awaited a mod based around this intriguing Avatar-General for years. Being the only Avatara to kill a Fallen Lord (Lady) first-hand, I held a certain respect for him that I did not equate even to Alric. Such was my elation when I learned that such a mod did exist. Such was my dissapointment when I saw how poorly animated he was...I mean no insult to whosoever did animate Rabican, certainly it must be difficult, but he looks, in all honesty, ridiculous when he walks. His left arm does not swing, and his legs move seemingly separate from his body? And he has only one attack animation. It just seemed, I don't know, innapropriate, especially when you see how well animated some of the new enemies are in MD 5. Is there something in particular about Rabican's model that makes him difficult to animate? The Texturing is exceptional, but his "kilt" seems far too short, and his helmet, too large. I know I have no right to complain, I should be thankful to have a Rabican mod at all, but still, I am willing to re-animate him if someone else is willing to teach me how. (also, I will provide voice-clips for him if someone can incorporate them into a plug-in).
2. Mazzarin - I realize there was no time to make an original model for him, but I must know if there are plans to create one. It would make MD so much better. You can scrap the plumed helm if its too difficult, but he should have two scimitars at least. Also, it doesn't make sense that he has no innate magical abilities - the Deceiver does, and I never considered Myrdred to be as powerful as Mazzarin. (I will also provide voice-clips for Mazzarin, if they can be incorporated into the game).
Well, I'll stop there for now since my computer has a nasty habit of crashing at inopportune moments, usually minutes before I hit the post button. I'll finish this soon enough.
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:41 pm
by William Wallet
I agree about Mazz, it's a shame he doesn't have a more individual look.
But I couldn't disagree more about Rabican. As I've said to anyone that would listen, Rabican looks like a lost BUNGiE unit from TFL - it's that good. I sincerely think it's one of Iron's finest works (better than Bahl'al, I think).
But hey. That's my opinion, and if you think a better Rabican could be made then more power to you, because no one would lose out. 
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:32 am
by Lord Thanos
In all honesty, I haven't seen Bahl'al yet. I refuse to play anything on "timid", so until I get to him on normal I'll just have to take your word for it. Anyhow, I think Rabican's model looks great, fairly close to how he should look (although the helm is a bit large, and could use more detail). Also, he doesn't have a tabard, just a cloth that hangs down below his belt, rather than a kilt. But thats just me being overly picky, of course. Its just the animation that needs work is all. He looks very stilted when he moves, as his left arm doesn't seem to swing very much, and his legs move oddly. Compare his movement to that of a beserker, and you'll see what I mean by the legs. When he goes to attack, his left arm jigs around strangely, and you can see the gaps in the animation between the initial swing of the blade, and the end of its arc. I know I'm being overly critical, its just that Rabican means alot to me, and I think he deserves a bit more work. Does anyone know of a good animation tutorial, so that I might try my hand at re-animating Rabican?
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:29 am
by William Wallet
Having just played it today, I think Rabican looks just fine. I agree that he looks funny when he moves - no funnier than regular Myth units do though.
I'm not sure what Iron used for the new Berserks, Thrall and Rabican - but with Blue and Grey and the Watcher he used Anim8or. If you're on a PC then I'd look that up.
I didn't think Rabican had a kilt, per se - I'll have to go and look at some pictures of him.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:37 am
by Brainbug
as far as i know the new units in Mazz 5 are rips from NWN characters, Rabican is a magma homemade model (by Ironduke)
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:49 am
by William Wallet
They wouldn't be straight rips would they? Otherwise why would they say Khellek made 'em?
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:18 am
by Brainbug
because there's more to making a myth unit then modelling/animating???
i dunno, i just heard they were from NWN models, i've never played NWN much, should reinstall it once :/
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:10 pm
by Archer
I disagree—the idea that Mazzarin should have a more individual look is, to me, anathema. Frankly, so is the new individual looks of the 'Mancers and the Paladin. If there's one consistent theme running throughout Myth, it's the fact that when it gets right down to it even the heroes are just members of the crowd and subject to death and destruction at the hands of ordinary enemies. To go back to the source material, the Captain, Croaker, Raven, these were all faces in a crowd. Likewise Whisper, Harden, Feather, Journey. Darling stood out. The ones who really stood out, though, were the Taken. Soulcatcher, Moonbiter, the Howler, the Limper… these were the important ones, and that was how it was meant to be. Likewise, in my opinion, with Myth.
Mazzarin's Demise, in any embodiment, obviously loses some piece of this, but individual models just throw it out the window.
~J
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:00 pm
by Lord Thanos
Its possible to import a unit directly from another game? Someone please inform me how to do this. I assumed that NWN was merely the inspiration for the Marilith Tanar'ri and eye tyrants, not a direct source.
Yes, I agree that Rabican looks fine (and no, he doesn't have a kilt in any drawing I've seen of him) but I do not agree that his animation is as good as any other unit in any Myth game. I've already explained why so I won't go into it again. Anyhow, thanks for telling me about anim8tor. Now to figure out how to use it :\
Now, to continue my list of improvements.
3. Throne of the Lich King - a wonderful map, quite tricky, but made all the more so by the linear system of selecting Khellek's various spells. How hard would it be to implement the spell selection system used in MD 5 into TotLK? Or Khellek's new model for that matter? I think prince mikael from the woods out back would make a better model for the Ranger Lord, and Belial or the Lich's from MD would make a much better Acerak then just a Fetch. Also, having wraiths or skeletons as enemies would be cool. (I think Blade would be better if he had Davin/Kerubiel's model personally).
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:23 pm
by Horus
1. Rabican. I awaited a mod based around this intriguing Avatar-General for years. Being the only Avatara to kill a Fallen Lord (Lady) first-hand, I held a certain respect for him that I did not equate even to Alric. Such was my elation when I learned that such a mod did exist. Such was my dissapointment when I saw how poorly animated he was...I mean no insult to whosoever did animate Rabican, certainly it must be difficult, but he looks, in all honesty, ridiculous when he walks. His left arm does not swing, and his legs move seemingly separate from his body? And he has only one attack animation. It just seemed, I don't know, innapropriate, especially when you see how well animated some of the new enemies are in MD 5. Is there something in particular about Rabican's model that makes him difficult to animate? The Texturing is exceptional, but his "kilt" seems far too short, and his helmet, too large. I know I have no right to complain, I should be thankful to have a Rabican mod at all, but still, I am willing to re-animate him if someone else is willing to teach me how. (also, I will provide voice-clips for him if someone can incorporate them into a plug-in).
Leave that issue alone. It's far better than most.
2. Mazzarin - I realize there was no time to make an original model for him, but I must know if there are plans to create one. It would make MD so much better. You can scrap the plumed helm if its too difficult, but he should have two scimitars at least. Also, it doesn't make sense that he has no innate magical abilities - the Deceiver does, and I never considered Myrdred to be as powerful as Mazzarin. (I will also provide voice-clips for Mazzarin, if they can be incorporated into the game).
There will be a new Mazzarin model in The Fallen's Vengeance. It would then likely appear in any Mazz VI or Rotd II.
Its possible to import a unit directly from another game? Someone please inform me how to do this. I assumed that NWN was merely the inspiration for the Marilith Tanar'ri and eye tyrants, not a direct source.
They were pre done by someone else and given to Khel in pieces, he put them together and animated them. Though please note that some of the models were scratch built by Khel, such as Khellek the Mage.
3. Throne of the Lich King - a wonderful map, quite tricky, but made all the more so by the linear system of selecting Khellek's various spells. How hard would it be to implement the spell selection system used in MD 5 into TotLK? Or Khellek's new model for that matter? I think prince mikael from the woods out back would make a better model for the Ranger Lord, and Belial or the Lich's from MD would make a much better Acerak then just a Fetch. Also, having wraiths or skeletons as enemies would be cool. (I think Blade would be better if he had Davin/Kerubiel's model personally).
There will be a tagset released after LoE, that updates it to LoE units. So leave that alone too (not all the LoE units were in Mazz V).
And with all this offering to help, that can stop too.
There is no plans for updates to the following
Mazz V (unless a serious bug happens).
Frenzy of the Damned (the creator Iron is no longer making Myth plugs).
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:45 pm
by Lord Thanos
I meant no offense Horus. Obviously I have annoyed you, and I sincerely apologize. Reading through my quotes, I realize that I was far too harsh concerning Rabican. I was just trying to get my thoughts on paper, so to speak.
Regarding Throne of the Lich King, I am glad to hear there are plans to update it. I love that map.
My offers to help are sincere Horus. I love the Myth series, and I've enjoyed everything the Project Magma team has created. It would be an honor to help out. My skills include: Writing, editing, voice acting, and web design. Hopefully animating will be added to that list as soon as I figure Anim8tor out. Speaking of which, I was wondering if a tutorial has ever been written for animating Myth creatures in that program.
Oh, and I can't wait to see Mazzarin.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:08 pm
by ChrisP
Thanos, your offers of help are appreciated, but for the moment at least, I am not sure if there'd be many practical tasks for you to do.
Mazz V will not be updated if I can help it. Personally, I hate asking non-testers to download a project I am involved in more than once unless it is absolutely necessary. I have no plans for a Mazz VI unless in the future Myth II is once again updated with dramatic new mapmaking features, but there are no solid plans for such a thing right now.
I can't really speak for any other projects, but I doubt Iron will want to re-release Frenzy either.
While the Tain seems like it could use a web designer, the actual problem is one of categorization and data entry on a massive level.
I don't know of any good unit creation tutorials and I'm not sure if you quite understand what you're asking to get into. I've been using Photoshop for years, but like most people, I don't have the kind of talent required to make a good colormap. This sort of thing holds doubly true of modeling and animation.
You're obviously eager so I hate to be a downer. I think there is something of an obligation for "established" map makers to be helpful to new people wanting to get into it. I could never have gotten into mapmaking myself were it not for the patience and knowledge of all the people who helped me out. Bear in mind though, that 99% of eager fellows such as yourself wind up not having enough commitment to see anything through, so you're going to have to first stomach a lot of cold and matter-of-fact attitudes like Horus's before you're taken seriously.
My advice is to start small and perhaps hang out on uDog Hotline. Ask around if anyone wants anything tested. If you get along well with someone who is working on a project, then see if you can help with something.
Good luck. 
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:01 pm
by Lord Thanos
Damn. I was really hoping to see a MD that used the upcoming Mazzarin model. Ah well. It's a miracle that anything is still being made for Myth. Certainly a true testament to its longevity.
I might be able to assist you with categorization and data entry as well, in fact, that shouldn't be a problem, just very time consuming. I always assumed that the real problem arose from trying to acquire permission to host all of those great mods that are out there (bandwidth of course is another consideration).
Also, if you could send me some dialouge from one of your upcoming projects, like LoE or tFV, I could provide you with some samples that you might consider incorporating into those projects.
I didn't mean to come off "eager", hell I've been a member since early 2004 and hardly posted at all. I always figured that you guys couldn't care less about my opinions, which you don't, and I really can't tell you what possessed me to finally write them down. Horus is absolutely warranted to have his cold and matter-of-fact attitude, I'm surprised all of you don't to be honest. Thats why I really appreciate some positivity now and then, so I thank you Chris, Khellek, and Iron, all of whom have shown themselves to be truly great people.
In terms of commitment, I am devoted to Myth. No matter what games I buy, DoW, BFME, nothing can compare to Myth. Nothing. I always end up coming back for more. I don't know if I have what it takes to model/animate new characters, but even if it takes me fifty years, I'm going to do it.
Thanks for wishing me luck, and for the uDog tip Chris, I hope that all goes well for you.
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:22 am
by William Wallet
Aye, unitmaking. In 2003 I got Anim8or, followed a tutorial word for word, and was barely able to make a human body. Didn't even bother with the head - 3D modelling just is not my thing. I don't understand it at all!
I don't have the time for it anyway.
Make no mistake though Thanos, your initiative is admirable. I just disagree about Rabican, is all.
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:53 am
by carlinho
hey lord thanos, if you're goood doing voice overs, I'm looking for some serious real type of voice overs of Greek Hoplite soldiers for the Classical Greece plugin.
for movement, select, attack voices.
let me know if you are interested.